Feeds:
Posts
Comments

Archive for the ‘Ergonomic Products’ Category

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

For those that know me, I am a big fan of treadmill desks. However, up until recently the main treadmill desk available was the Walkstation, for $4400-$4900, from Steelcase. And that may be too hefty of a price tag for small offices and the self-employed. Now more options are lower prices have become available! I am posting some of the best user reviews and options I found to date.

 LifeSpan TR1200-DT Treadmill Desk from LifeSpan Fitness

LifeSpan TR1200-DT Treadmill Desk

Here are some of the more specific Amazon reviews on the LifeSpan TR1200-DT Treadmill Desk

Eclectic Teacher says this about the  LifeSpan TR1200-DT Treadmill Desk:

I type this as I walk at 2mph on the treadmill in my home office. The desk is a fairly solid, almost stupidly-simple to assemble, unit in five easy pieces (not counting nut’n'bolts). It’s not too hard to adjust to get it to the right height, though changing it regularly for multiple users would be a real pain. The controls at the front of the desk are fairly unobtrusive, quite intuitive, and quite literally easy enough for my five-year-old to use (he thinks it cool, and keeps asking to use it before school for five or ten minutes – he hops on, starts it up with me nearby, walks and trots for a little while, stops it, and says “thanks, dad.”)

The treadmill part comes totally preassembled, and you just have to unpack it and roll it into place. It seems to work just as you’d expect, and feels solid under my feet. It plugs into the desk with a really simple, only-one-possible-way to plug it together plug to connect it to the desk controls. The wires run almost entirely interior to the desk leg, an elegant solution. While in use, it’s very quiet.

My biggest annoyance is that it doesn’t plug into your computer via a USB or something to track your long-term progress, and if you pull the dead-man stop it resets all your mileage / time, etc.

Personally, I think 2.5 mph is great for just surfing the net. Two mph works for most typing. 1.5 mph is for drinking coffee and more serious typing, and about 1 mph for eating breakfast with a plate under it while surfing the web before the coffee kicks in.

Shelly.Daniels says “I was surprised how quickly you pick up the “feel” of walking while using the desk. When I first started I was walking at 1-1.4 mph and felt comfortable typing while walking. Now, 1.6 is comfortable for me…What has surprised me is how often this is now being used. This was bought just for me to be used in the office but we have found many other uses…I use it at night now on occasion to do my Facebook updates, recently it was where a good bit of my Christmas shopping was completed! “

Shelley goes on to talk about the desk itself: The work surface allows me to comfortably stores my laptop, phone, folders, mouse and water bottle. The console was very smartly designed where it does not slide under the desk or sit on top of the desk like the others I looked at. One of my favorite parts is the built-in step counter…it is fun and VERY motivating to watch the steps add while you work or play. As mentioned earlier the treadmill is very quiet and have asked people while on speakerphone if they could hear the treadmill and they could not! The treadmill has 4 levelers to ensure that the desk is level and the desk is very solid and stable. I get no movement and vibration on the desk and assume that is because the treadmill and desk are not attached.

WorknMan “worknman”  brings up some issues about typing versus mousing on the Treadmill desk: From the very beginning, typing seemed very easy for me while walking on this thing. Unfortunately, mouse precision took a pretty serious hit. This probably won’t be a problem if you’re a typical office worker and/or spend most of your day typing. But if you do a lot of mousing (like me), this could be a problem. In my case, using the mouse while on the treadmill is getting easier over time as I get more used to it, plus it is forcing me to use shortcut keys more to save time, so I guess that can only be a good thing :) When I first got the treadmill, I couldn’t go any faster than 0.5mph before I could no longer control the mouse. Now I’m up to 1.0, and I can go as fast as 1.5, depending on what I’m doing.

To order yours for about $1300, click here.

TrekDesk Treadmill Desk

TrekDesk Treadmill Desk

Another option is the TrekDesk Treadmill Desk by Trek, for about $480. However, Amazon reviewer say this desk is not adjustable, rattles and shakes and is of such poor quality it’s not worth it. Check out the desk and reviews here.

TreadDesk

TreadDesk

Another option is to simply add a treadmill, without handlebars to your existing desk set up. This may require you to add monitor risers to raise your monitor high enough to see it comfortable while standing. The TreadDesk is currently on back order, but at $840, this would be my first pick to retrofit an existing desk to a treadmill. The TreadDesk control panel sits on top of the desk and is attached to the Tread with a six-foot long wire. The control panel keeps track of distance, time, speed, calories burned and comes with an emergency shut off cord which should always be worn when using the TreadDesk. A rubber treadmill mat is also included with the purchase of each TreadDesk. If you want to read detailed user comments about the TreadDesk, click here.

Build Your Own Treadmill Desk

A cheaper option but far more labor intensive one is to build a treadmill desk yourself.  Jay Buster, an options trader, created a blog called Treadmill Desk. (Today, while walking on his Treadmill Desk, Jay manages a private investment fund which is involved in option and structured product arbitrage.) He writes this post, The $39 Treadmill Desk, to tell you how to build your own treadmill desk for $39 (minus the cost of the treadmill, natch!).

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

Recently I helped a client adjust her chair to better reach the arm rests of her chair to reduce tension in her neck and shoulders. She had done a fantastic job of repositioning her monitors and keyboard, but we found that her arm rest height was too low for her to rest her arms comfortably on the chair as she worked.

 

Arm rest positions. Image from OHSA website.

After we found some potential fixes for her workstation, I thought I’d share some resources with Working Well Resource readers in case you are having similar problems with your chair. For starters, if your arm rest are not adjustable and you can’t reach them, you may need arm rest pads or a new chair. If you do not have a way to rest your arms as you work on your desk or computer keyboard, your poor shoulders have to hold your arms up all day. That may not seem like a big deal, but think about it, if you went tot he gym and had to hold a 5-pound weight or even a 1-pound weight up in front of you for 8 hours, your arms would be exhausted!  And you likely wouldn’t even be able to hold the weight for that long no matter how strong you are. But that is what many of us expect our bodies to do at work.

Ergononmic Resources for Arm Rests

OSHA has some of the best information about workstation ergonomics and office chairs here. 

, from About.com Guide, has great tips on office chair ergonomics in her article, Before You Decide on Office Chair Arm Rest Adjustments. This post describes optimum settings to adjust your chair for the most ergonomic Arm Rest Height, arm rest width and rm rest pivot as well as how to handle Non-Adjustable Armrests and the Armless Chair.

And here is a great tutorial from Prometheus Training Corporation, explaining self assessment tools you can use to determine if your workstation is set up as ergonomically as possible.  The video is a bit dry, but the graphics and information presented is excellent!

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

Proper ergonomics for computer work. Image by Wikipedia

Want new info on making your office at home or work more ergonomics? Check out Ergonomics Info here.

The site provides tips on ergonomic consideration for desktop computer users, laptop computer users and ideal monitor, chair and desk position to help those that work more than 2 hours a day on computers. For computer ergonomic tips, click here.  The site also includes chair reviews, keyboard and mouse reviews. The site also has a great graphic that shows proper seating positioning at a computer workstation. Go to this link and then scroll to the bottom of the page to see the graphic!

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

Check out this amazingly well designed and useful tablet stand, the Satechi R1 Arm Hinge HolderStand! Only about $49 on Amazon here. This stand allows you to tilt your tablet at a comfortable viewing angle and work hands free.

R1 Tablet Stand

Product Design

Satechi R1 is a desktop stand for any 7″ to 10″ tablet. Constructed from solid aluminum, the R1′s supporting grips are finished in rubber to hold your tablet securely in place. It’s compatible with most tablet cases. The R1 will hold your tablet at the right height and angle you determine to be for desktop use – useful for working with a Bluetooth keyboard, watching movies or video conferencing.

Technical Details

  • Compatible with 7″ to 10″ tablets:
    iPad,
    iPad 2,
    ASUS Eee Pad Transformer,
    Motorola Xoom,
    Samsung Galaxy Tab,
    Galaxy 10.1,
    ViewSonic gTablet,
    BlackBerry Playbook,
    HTC Flyer
  • Solid aluminum construction with rubber pads that hold surface for your tablet
  • Put your tablet in Portrait, Landscape or Flat-Angled orientation, change Height or Angle.
  • 270 degree mount hinge, 180 degree base hinge, folds away compactly into its pouch
  • Package includes: R1 Stand, pouch, user manual with 1 year warranty

Amazon reviewers say:

Bic: This holder was better than I expected.

Nicely machined aluminum with pads in the right places. Very good industrial design. Stiff enough to hold my Asus Transformer tablet securely in place in any viewing angle, but not so stiff as to make adjusting difficult

Fully deserves 5 stars.

Susan A. Ferraglio: The r1 stand is well built, sturdy yet of moderate size. The included carrying pouch is a nice added touch. I like the stand because it has protective rubber linings at all the contact points for the iPad. There are so many comfortable positions for typing landscape or portrait mode. In a folded position the iPad is close to the table surface for typing at a desk, the stand can be raised so the iPad can be held up for movie viewing or photo slide shows.

I use a Bear Motion leather iPad case (which I love) which I DO NOT have to remove when using the stand, Great convenience !

This stand is versatile because other electronics can be used as well. The iPhone fits nicely. It can held high for more comfort.

I also used my 13″ laptop in it but the joints were not strong enough to hold the laptop up high. It worked well when the stand was closed. The laptop was kept at a comfortable angle for use at a desk.

My only concern is the strength of the joints. They are very tight now. They easily hold up the iPad without moving. Over time they may weaken and I don’t see an easy way to tighten them if needed. Hopefully that will be a long way off. Build quality is very good. The finish is a satin-smooth finish – very even and clean.
I would definitely recommend this stand for its versatility, size and multiple positions.

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

Orbus Low Back Seat Support

Recently I’ve had a lot of questions from clients about modifying their desks and workstations to help reduce back and neck pain. So I thought I’d list the top posts for ergonomic workspace solutions in one location.  If you have an uncomfortable chair or need a keyboard tray but your desk doesn’t easily allow for one, read the posts listed below from this blog.

Fit Your Keyboard to You Not You to Your Keyboard!

Save Your Back with a Backrest for Car and Office

Backrest For the Above Average in Height That Need Head and Neck Support

Backrest for Short and Medium Height People

Great Backrest for People of Wider Girth and Gamers Too!

Pair Your Backrest with a Great Seat Cushion

Footrests for the Vertically Challenged

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

Reebok EASY TONE(2009)
Bottom of Reebok Easy Tone Shows. Image via Wikipedia

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

While on our recent trip, we stopped in Tennessee at an outlet mall. I shopped at a Reebok store and bought a pair of the new “toning shoes” that are supposed to work your gluts, hamstrings and lower legs to help better tone your muscles and help improve your fitness levels.

Conceptually I applaud the new trend in walking shoes. Why? Because nowadays too many people walk on concrete-a flat unyielding surface that does not give or provide any instability for your lower legs and feet.  What’s so great about instability? It allows your lower leg muscles to work harder and get stronger. This in turn can help your feet grow stronger, prevent potential lower leg/foot issues like sore heels or heel spurs and also gives your muscles a new way to work. Walking barefoot in sand or grass is also great but impractical in our times for many people.

Note: As usual I am going to post my derriere-covering disclaimer here: I am not a doctor. Any info I post is either my own opinion or a summary of other articles written by medical personal with a link to the original article.

WebMD weighs in on the toner shoes here. From a podiatrist point of view, the new shoes take pressure off the heel and give better support to the ankle. A Chicago doc says the shoes are not great for arthritis sufferers (which makes sense because arthritis is about joint inflammation, not about muscle tone). And most experts agree that the shoes should be broken in slowly. As in, don’t wear them for a 4 mile walk the first day you try them out!

My Reebok Easy Tone shoes are super comfortable. They felt great from the moment I put them on until the moment I took them off. The Reebok brand is not as rounded and high as the other toner type shoes I’ve seen which was a plus to me. From afar they look like regular running or walking shoes. It’s only when you turn them over that you see the round “balls” underneath the pad of the foot and heel. These balls cause your foot to be slightly unstable. (Not “I am going to fall off my shoes” unstable, but more “I feel myself rocking a slight bit as I walk” unstable.) After a day of walking int he Easy Tones on concrete, my legs do feel different and I do feel more muscle “soreness” (slight) in my hams and gluts but also my lower legs. To me, this is  a good sign of the shoes making me use my leg muscles differently!

My Easy Tone Shoes by Reebok. Image by Sue Shekut

There’s an excellent You Tube video segment of the Today Show that shows three woman trying out the MBT’s, Skechers and Reebok versions of the shoes with a great explanation of how the shoes work along with a short segment on the former NASA engineer at Reebok that created their version of the shoe based on how a Bosu ball works. Check it out here.

CNN’s experts don’t think much of the manufacturer’s claims that the shoes will be a substitute for the gym or regular workouts. on this I agree. Like any other immediate gratification fix, such claims are too good to be true. Plus you would likely have to significantly increase your walking time to get a real benefit from the shoes. For me, though, having the shoes in my “fitness arsenal” aka my shoe rack, gives me a way to work my lower legs and gluts as I walk around the city.

The Associated Press gives a short rundown on the top toner shoes by brand here. The article is short but gives the basics abotu the top five selling brands of toning shoes.

HubPages gives us this article about how Dr. Scholl got the toner idea first with his wooden sandals. I don’t know about you, but I had a few pair and I loved them way back when.

The only way to lose weight is to exercise and reduce your caloric intake. But if wearing these shoes makes you walk more, then it’s a great tool in your fitness toolbox. If wearing these shoes makes you fall and twist your ankle or lose balance and fall or causes any foot or ankle pain, then don’t wear them!

Do you have a pair of toning shoes? Tell us about your experience in the comment section!

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

A while ago I wrote about the ergonomic problems inherent is using the new iPad (and iPods and even reading books can put you in the same uncomfortable positions) Some people have theorized that Apple is counting on aftermarket vendors to come up with ergonomic products to support the nifty gadgets Apple creates.  And there are a slew of aftermarket products coming out now to make your “iViewing” more ergonomic. Below is a list of some of the aftermarket products I’ve found to help you more comfortably view your iPad, smart phone, etc.

Portabook is still one of my favorites for its light weight portability, versatility, ease of use and cost. It’s not designed specially for the iPad, but it can be used to read books, cookbooks, for laptop use as well as your iPad. Why buy multiple stands when one device can work for them all! And the Portabook costs about $20 and weighs only ounces so it fits into a backpack along with your iPad easily. Hmmm, if my clients use the iPad and Portabook on the Metra their neck pain may disappear!

iLounge has a great review of a more versatile iPad holder here. iLounge recommends the Luxa2’s H4 iPad Holder  for its versatility, price and polish. iLounge says that the H4 is “an iPad-matching aluminum base with a cable managing slot, and a rotating, pivoting cradle with expanding rubber-tipped metal arms that can hold a bare or encased iPad as firmly as you prefer…it feels solid and sturdy even without an iPad resting in its cradle; but unlike Griffin’s A-Frame, all of its edges are polished to prevent iPad or finger damage.”

MacWorld also weighs in on the various aftermarket iPad stands. Their top vote mirrors that of iLounge: the Luxa2 H4 iPad Holder. Check out their other reviews here.

A fantastic story and video about this iPad stand designed and made by  75-year-old Dutch woodworker, Simon Blazer, is only $5!  Reviewed by Wired and CrunchGear already, this simply wooden block stand is what it is-just a stand. But ti’s also only $5.

Simon Blazer and his $5 wooden iPad stand

The Articulating Easel has one of the best web presentations about the ergonomics of iPad viewing here. Their product looks very similar to the Portabook but as of today, according to the website, its’ not yet available. Ha!  So you can subscribe to their mailing list and get a 10% discount on the product when it becomes available. I’d guess it will likely retail for about the same price as the PortaBook, maybe $20 to $30. But with so many other products ALREADY available, the Articulating Easel may be marketing for the competition.

The Artculating Easel in use with an iPad

The  picture below shows the Articulating Easel in use on a plane. This is a great pic because it shows how much better you can sit using an iPad holder (although the Portabook could be used much the same way.)

Here’s the Articulating Easel’s diagram showing Steve Jobs uncomfortable viewing angle with the iPad:

Steve Jobs viewing angle of iPad

The Articulating Easel also has a great page showing ergonomic issues with the iPad (and how aftermarket stands like the Articulating Easel can help!) Check out the ergonomic explanation here.

iGearUSA sells leather case that can hold the IPad and stand it up at a more comfortable viewing angle. Cost about $30.00. Check it out and order here.

iGear iPad Stand

There is also an iPad Holder for your car. Which I DO NOT recommend. It’s bad enough that we are distracted by cell phones, board advertising, and GPS systems. now we are going to use the iPad in our cars? A scary marriage of social networking (which is already a distracting, multitasking activity) with something dangerous like operating a motor vehicle. I see the day when municipalities and state governments ban iPad use in your car!

If you have an iPad, tell us about your ergonomic issues in the Comments section. Do you like/love/hate the iPad? What do you use it for? What is your most comfortable iPad viewing position? (Downward facing dog?!)

Enhanced by Zemanta

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist, Certified Wellness Coach, ACSM Personal Trainer

My mother gave me the Miracle Ball Method for Christmas last year.  I have to say, they do work to release tension in specific muscle areas also known as Trigger Points. Chiropractors have told me to use tennis balls for self massage and you can use Miracle Balls the same way. Basically, you lay on the floor, place a Miracle Ball under your back in the area that is tight and then rock back and forth on the ball until it “massages” your muscles.

Tennis balls are harder and if you need a firmer “touch” you may want to use the tennis balls. But I found the larger size and “squishiness” of the Miracle Balls made them more comfortable to use and I could lay on them longer.  Andrew, one of my massage therapists at the Working Well Massage chair stations, uses golf balls to massage his back, but he is a lot tougher than I am!

The key to using tennis balls, or Miracle Balls, is to place them on areas of your muscles only–not on bone and definitely not directly on your spine.

Chrissie and Dan, Amazon reviewrs, Demonstrate Micracle Ball placement

If you are under a doctor’s care for muscle or spinal problems, consult your doctor before using tennis or miracle balls or any other exercise!

Seniors and those with excess body weight may have a hard time using these balls according to Amazon reviewers. And of course, there is no substitute for human touch and a real massage. But in a pinch, I find the Miracle Balls a nice quick self massage tool.

Read what Amazon Reviewers say about Miracle Balls

• When I first saw this set of 2 small, blue-green balls, I really wondered whether they were any good. Decided to take a chance, and I am sure glad I did. Propped myself over these 2 semi-inflated balls on the floor and it was sheer bliss as my own body weight sank upon them.

The set consists of 2 approximately 4 inch (11 cm) diameter therapy balls (re-inflatable) and a pocket-sized 296 page insruction book packed in a transparent casing. The balls are approx. a half-inch (1 cm) thick each, and are not as thin-skinned as might be imagined. The book says that the balls are built tough, and are good for up to 300 pounds, and I believe the claim is sustainable.

In my opinion, these 2 little balls are fantastic value for money for what they are capable of, and you would be surprised how nice it feels once you prop your tired body over them at the end of a long day. Although these are therapy balls, you may also want to use them as I frequently do – a simple and ‘fun’ way of giving your body a much needed self-massage, merely by placing them at strategic locations beneath your body and resting over them.

By the way, I am not one of Ms. Elaine Petrone’s student, since I am writing from half a world away. But, I am definitely her fan now after being convinced by these 2 little ‘Miracle’ balls! Go http://www.elainepetrone.com for more info.

My advice: considering their low price, get them while they are available, as these little balls are ‘hot’ – they were all sold out on Amazon.com until recently.

• I am a licensed Massage therapist in Hawaii. I stumbled upon Elaine’s book and started using it for my neck & back pain. I was pleasantly surprised at how deep my muscles and spine could be worked while I did two simple things Breath and Relax. Although breathing and relaxing is simple it becomes more difficult the longer the balls are in one position and works deeper into the muscles. At that point I choose either to move positions or focus on relaxing further and deeper breathing to let the ball(s) work deeper.

I’ve recommended the product to clients to use in-between massage treatment however discipline to use the balls is a stumbling block for many. I have found if a client uses the balls prior to a massage treatment, generally don’t have to work the muscles as deeply because they have already begun to relax. Deep tissue client get much better result than just a massage alone.

I’m buying more to give away and sell in my practice because when used correctly on it’s own can be a healing resouce for many patients who are disiplined to use this self treatment.

• Just a suggestion on this product: start out easing into it. Too much too fast will put you in pain, but with starting gently for a very short time you can find relief. It really has been helpful with sciatic pain using one or two balls in the lower back/sacariliac area. I’ve wanted something like these balls for a long time as I sensed that putting pressure on a spot by lying on a ball could help. They do work. Worth the price.

• If you have serious pain or injury, like sciatica, consult your doctor and see a chiropractor. However, if you have nagging back pain that you know is brought on by tight joints and muscles, stress, or exercise, I would definitely give the Miracle Balls a try.

Order Miracle Balls from Amazon for about $12.00  here.

Reblog this post [with Zemanta]

Read Full Post »

By Sue Shekut, Owner, Working Well Massage, Licensed Massage Therapist,  Certified Wellness Coach and ACSM Personal Trainer

G2 Fitness Mouse Stretch Program

Do you work long hours at your computer? Performing the same tasks over and over can lead to muscle tension and injury. Michelle S. Jones, an eHow Contributing Writer, advises you to “Stand up and walk around if your job involves a lot of sitting. For every 20 minutes of work, take a two-minute break, which can be as simple as standing up and stretching,” in her article, Simple Steps to Take to Avoid Workplace Ergonomic Injuries,

OK, that’s pretty simple advice: Get up and stretch as often as possible. But how should you stretch? And what about your stretches for your hands? Now G2Fitness has a Mouse-Pad Stretch program that can help you out.

For the low price of $9.95, the Mouse Pad Stretch Program gives you:

  • 9 Simple and Effective Stretches
  • Offered in Black with Blue Coloring
  • Full Video instruction at g2fit.com
  • ECO Friendly (100% Recyclable)
  • Physician Certified Stretches
  • Bacteria Resistant
  • Washable Non-slip Surface
  • Long-lasting and Durable
  • Revolutionary Patented Material
  • Dimensions : 20cm x 25cm x 4mm
  • Material: 100% TPE

What’s the Story Behind G2 Fitness?

According to the G2 Fitness website, G2 Fitness CEO and founder Gasper Guarrasi has always enjoyed a fast-paced, competitive lifestyle. In his professional life, Mr. Guarrasi’s persistent focus, drive, and creativity were essential to his achievements as president of a $100 million company. On the playing field, Mr. Guarrasi was also known as a driven competitor, running up to 30 miles a week.

Towards the end of 2006, Gasper set a goal to play on the PGA tour and began the journey to play great golf. Through intensive training with top instructors and fitness experts, he discovered that the key element his game was missing was flexibility. He began a regime of specifically designed stretches which he performed every day and found that these not only improved his game but also made him feel better on a day—to—day basis. Today, his dedication to practicing and specifically stretching helped Mr. Guarrasi to become a scratch golfer with zero handicap who has had the honor of playing in qualifying events for the U.S. Open Championship and the Northern Trust Open.

While Mr. Guarrasi continues his love for the game of golf, the true passion that he takes from his experiences is his belief in the benefits of stretching. G2 Fitness combines Mr. Guarrasi’s sports and business acumen with his desire to help others live a healthier, fit life. The company is inspired to create powerful results for people in both health and sports.

Check out Celebrity Diet and Exercise Examiner, Fitz Koehler’s related post here.

Read Full Post »

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 551 other followers

%d bloggers like this: